Daily Kos

Scott Ritter Article: US War on Iran has already begun

Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 05:47:49 PM PDT

Bits and pieces from an article published today in
Aljazeera...

I'm curious whether Bush's idea of an Iran- occupying force will consist solely of American draftees, Iraqi conscripts or another "coalition"
as yet defined....scary stuff from Mr. Ritter..

Sunday 19 June 2005 - Americans, along with the rest of the world, are starting to wake up to the uncomfortable fact that President George Bush not only lied to them about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (the ostensible excuse for the March 2003 invasion and occupation of that country by US forces), but also about the very process that led to war.

On 16 October 2002, President Bush told the American people that "I have not ordered the use of force. I hope that the use of force will not become necessary."

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m12776&l=i&size=1&hd=0

"We know now that this statement was itself a lie, that the president, by late August 2002, had, in fact, signed off on the 'execute' orders authorising the US military to begin active military operations inside Iraq, and that these orders were being implemented as early as September 2002, when the US Air Force, assisted by the British Royal Air Force, began expanding its bombardment of targets inside and outside the so-called no-fly zone in Iraq.

These operations were designed to degrade Iraqi air defence and command and control capabilities. They also paved the way for the insertion of US Special Operations units, who were conducting strategic reconnaissance, and later direct action, operations against specific targets inside Iraq, prior to the 19 March 2003 commencement of hostilities.

President Bush had signed a covert finding in late spring 2002, which authorised the CIA and US Special Operations forces to dispatch clandestine units into Iraq for the purpose of removing Saddam Hussein from power."...

"....But the facts speak of another agenda, that of war and the forceful removal of the theocratic regime, currently wielding the reigns of power in Tehran.

As with Iraq, the president has paved the way for the conditioning of the American public and an all-too-compliant media to accept at face value the merits of a regime change policy regarding Iran, linking the regime of the Mullah's to an "axis of evil" (together with the newly "liberated" Iraq and North Korea), and speaking of the absolute requirement for the spread of "democracy" to the Iranian people...

...By the intensity of the "liberation/democracy" rhetoric alone, Americans should be put on notice that Iran is well-fixed in the cross-hairs as the next target for the illegal policy of regime change being implemented by the Bush administration.

But Americans, and indeed much of the rest of the world, continue to be lulled into a false sense of complacency by the fact that overt conventional military operations have not yet commenced between the United States and Iran....

...To the north, in neighbouring Azerbaijan, the US military is preparing a base of operations for a massive military presence that will foretell a major land-based campaign designed to capture Tehran.

Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld's interest in Azerbaijan may have escaped the blinkered Western media, but Russia and the Caucasus nations understand only too well that the die has been cast regarding Azerbaijan's role in the upcoming war with Iran.

The ethnic links between the Azeri of northern Iran and Azerbaijan were long exploited by the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and this vehicle for internal manipulation has been seized upon by CIA paramilitary operatives and US Special Operations units who are training with Azerbaijan forces to form special units capable of operating inside Iran for the purpose of intelligence gathering, direct action, and mobilising indigenous opposition to the Mullahs in Tehran....

...Most Americans, together with the mainstream American media, are blind to the tell-tale signs of war, waiting, instead, for some formal declaration of hostility, a made-for-TV moment such as was witnessed on 19 March 2003.

We now know that the war had started much earlier. Likewise, history will show that the US-led war with Iran will not have begun once a similar formal statement is offered by the Bush administration, but, rather, had already been under way since June 2005, when the CIA began its programme of MEK-executed terror bombings in Iran.
...

Update [2005-6-20 9:15:39 by route66]:

I'm was very relieved to wake up and see the comments and rec's on my diary, I had crashed last night after it fell off the front page. My posting was sloppy after a busy Father's Day; the intention as always was to alert Kossites to a situation I found troubling. Ritter has his critics but has been proven correct in many of his claims over time.

The WAPO's background today on Bolton's role in the Iran nuclear negotiations is helpful:

"The shift in Bolton's role occurred shortly after Bush named Rice as his second-term secretary of state. As the administration's point man confronting Iran's nuclear program, Bolton had blocked U.S. support for a European bid to negotiate a settlement with Tehran, arguing that such talks would legitimize Iran's clerical regime without stopping any secret weapons development.

But Bolton was shut out of Iran after Rice's ascension, according to two U.S. officials, and his policy was reversed. In early January, officials from France, Britain and Germany flew secretly to Washington for a brainstorming session on Iran. Bolton was not invited, European diplomats said. Instead, they met with Elliott Abrams of the National Security Council."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/19/AR2005061900697.html

The question of last night still stands for debate: with what army?...Remember, every comment and argument being made on this diary is formulated using what we like to call realistic thought processes....no such reality exists in this White House...they make their own up as they go along in their predetermined destiny...

so are we to tag along blindly? not after Iraq. ...we must continue to watch their every move and openly debate every nuance.

Update [2005-6-20 18:7:36 by route66]: More on Ritter, he gave a speech this weekend in Washington, reiterating his claim that Bush has signed off on an air offensive to begin this month, ostensibly to knock off nuclear targets but with a larger goal of regime change in Tehran. link: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8130.htm

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Permalink | 281 comments

  •  what scares me (4.00 / 6)

    He was right about Iraq.  Chances are that he is right about this too.
    •  Not to mention... (4.00 / 2)

      that Seymour Hersh has been making simular things.

      The lesson of that history is that you must not despair, that if you are right, and you persist, things will change. -Howard Zinn

      by blueyedace2 on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 06:51:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  this New Yorker Hersh article from January (4.00 / 3)

        is worth a re-read....

        I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain

        by route66 on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 06:56:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  oops (4.00 / 6)

          I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain

          by route66 on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 06:57:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Bush pattern: (none / 1)

            Earlier this month, Jeremy Scahill wrote a powerful piece on the Web site of the Nation, describing a huge air assault in September 2002. "Approximately 100 U.S. and British planes flew from Kuwait into Iraqi airspace," Scahill writes.

            "At least seven types of aircraft were part of this massive operation, including U.S. F-15 Strike Eagles and Royal Air Force Tornado ground-attack planes. They dropped precision-guided munitions on Saddam Hussein's major western air-defense facility, clearing the path for Special Forces helicopters that lay in wait in Jordan.

            "Earlier attacks had been carried out against Iraqi command and control centers, radar detection systems, Revolutionary Guard units, communication centers and mobile air-defense systems. The Pentagon's goal was clear: Destroy Iraq's ability to resist."

            As Scahill points out, this was a month before the congressional vote and two months before the U.N. resolution. The United States hadn't declared war. Bush had no authorization, not even a fig leaf. This pre-emptive war pre- empted Congress and international law.

            Most Americans don't know about these prewar attacks. The bombings that destroyed Iraq's air defenses were under the radar for both the American media and American citizens.


            http://tinyurl.com/aacx4

            How can he get away with this?

            This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

            by Agathena on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 08:29:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  what "Attacks" are you refering to ??? (none / 1)

          the US-led war with Iran will not have begun once a similar formal statement is offered by the Bush administration, but, rather, had already been under way since June 2005, when the CIA began its programme of MEK-executed terror bombings in Iran.

          links or sources ???

          •  If you have links and sources... (none / 0)

            ... please let us know.

            My heart is in the pit of my stomach after reading this diary... tell me this isn't really happening... please, no.

            •  One more (none / 0)

              All sorts of good info here

              Air Attack: The First Phase of the War
              To some extent, the air war over Iraq began when the United States and the United Kingdom enforced "no-fly zones" over the north and the south of the country. The zones were imposed to prevent the Iraqi military from launching helicopter or aircraft strikes on Shi'a Muslim regions of the south, as Iraq did immediately after the 1991 Persian Gulf War, and the Kurdish autonomous zone in the north of the country. The Iraqi government stated that the imposition of these zones is a violation of national sovereignty. Iraqi anti-aircraft units fired on U.S. and British aircraft; these two nations, in turn, responded with attacks on Iraqi defense sites.

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              by Closet VB Coder on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 10:12:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I meant info on the possible attack on Iran... (none / 0)

                ... but thanks for the response! Sadly, we here at downingstreetmemo.com are all to familiar with the bogus crap leading up to the debacle in Iraq :-(

                You are correct in equating the two, as is the diarist. I just don't want it to be happening again. I smell the smoke, but I admit my exhausted emotional side doesn't want to find out about the fire...

                •  it's being reported as (none / 1)

                  terrorist and dissident attacks in Iran.

                  I remember discussing this here about a week ago and we all knew it was the CIA.   Pretty obvious.

                  "Letting a Republican govern is like letting a pedophile babysit"

                  by Nordic on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 11:26:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This is a (none / 0)

                    typical CIA strategy, used in Iran in the 70's as well as Latin America during the same period. However it was mainly used to distabilize the counrty and as a way to legitimize further repression. What they do is to place the bombs, and then start crying "such and such group put the bomb. NOw we have to militarize the hole country"

                    Also to note is that this comes at the time of the elections there (guess they did not use Diebold machines!). So the question is who is seen as the likely winner there.

                    As for the US going to war there, GOOD LUCK IN CONVINCING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WE HAVE TO GO TO ANOTHER WAR AT THE ORDERS OF THE DECIEVER IN CHIEF. HE CRIED WOLVES ONE TOO MANY TIMES.

                    •  and at home... (none / 0)

                      ...it was mainly used to distabilize the counrty and as a way to legitimize further repression. What they do is to place the bombs, and then start crying "such and such group put the bomb. NOw we have to militarize the hole country"

                      Gee, pretty much describes the US today, doesn't it?

                      We should be expecting another "terror attack" in the country soon.

                      The natives are restless.

                      Inquiry that does not achieve coordination of behaviour is not inquiry but simply wordplay - Richard Rorty

                      by BuckMulligan on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 01:47:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  perhaps he's referring to this (none / 0)

              Car bombs kill nine, last week...

              "Oftentimes there's only one thing more dangerous than thinking that you're right: Being right." -Simon Malthus

              by dreamsign on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 10:59:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Recent bombings (none / 1)

              in Iran here from the Washington Post. There has been speculation that these were carried out by the MEK, an Iranian terrorist organization supported by Saddam.
            •  Ritter has been saying June 2005 (none / 1)

              for a year now.  It looks like it's not going to happen.  I suspect he's grabbing onto the terrorist activities in Iran (which may be supported by the U.S.) so as not to lose credibility.

              Right now, the US couldn't invade Grenada, much less Iran, which is mountainous and hasn't been decimated like Iraq was.  There will be no full-scale invasion of Iran.  We may bomb their facilities, which could draw them into Iraq.  If Iran is stupid enough to respond to an attack,  it would be like the first round of the Chechan war.  Lots of bombing without much controlled territory.

              The only way we invade Iran is with a draft.  That will require a major terrorist hit here in the US.  And by major, I mean equal to or greater than 911.

          •  Here is one I found (none / 1)

            Christian Science Moniter (opens in new window)

            This article posted before actual war began detailing increased attacks on Iraq.

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            by Closet VB Coder on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 10:05:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  If I'm reading this right (none / 0)

            I would say that it wouldn't be news if there were links and sources.

            Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

            by rogun on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 10:31:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Whaaaaa ??? (none / 0)

              I would say that it wouldn't be news if there were links and sources.

              would links and sources disqualify it somehow ???

              as to the links provided, nonstrategic bombing:

              two separate bombs blew up inside the toilets of the city's housing department and planning department. The fourth bomb, planted in a handbag on the street, exploded as experts tried to defuse it. The fourth site was near the home of the head of the provincial radio and television station.

              if somebody did this at our bidding, they sure didn't help much

              when the Iranian State telephone exchange blows up for no apparent reasons, call me

              this doesn't resemble our pre-war war against iraq at all

              •  Are you looking for links that verify some sort (4.00 / 2)

                of bombing of Iran? If so, this wouldn't be news if they existed. The point is that, according to Ritter, bombing operations have begun. If you need a link to verify that then you have a lot more trust in the MSM than I do.

                Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

                by rogun on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 12:32:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  WTF ??? (4.00 / 2)

                  I knew Colin Powell"s lies before he told them dude

                  Yellowcake, uranium tubes, mobile labs, I knew it all, in real time

                  you might have spent the past two years learning that from the MSM, but I knew it in real time

                  if you read enough, and you know how to gleen bullshit from the golden nuggets, you could be as well informed as I am

                  there are bombs going off in SEVERAL mideastern countries, but how many are destroying strategic targets, like telephone exchanges, and electrical transmission facilities

                  the simple fact that things are blowing up isn't an indication of a CIA plot, ask WHAT is being blowing up, that is how to track CIA plots

                  the bombings listed in the above links hit nothing strategic or even "targetable" from a militaryu standpoint

                  who gives a shit about exploding toilets

                  when strategic infastructure starts blowing up, call me

                  I knew why flight 800 crashed, 24 hours after it happened. I learned it from the msm that you deride. The MSM didn't know the importance of the report they showed, but I did. 2 years later, the NTSB confirmed what I already knew, the wings blew off. Happened to another 747 over Spain in 1972, just like the report said

                  •  Well we can't all be as smart as you (4.00 / 2)

                    One thing that I'll never forget is watching Colin Powell lie to the UN and then watching the press shower him with praise for making a "convincing" case afterwards. To me this was the defining moment when I realized just how screwed we were, because it was precisely at that moment when I realized the MSM was definitely working for the Government. How could it not have been?

                    But I'm not sure what any of that has to do with this discussion? I haven't read any links, so that may be a source of confusion for me, but I don't know what they have to do with your request for a link to verfiy that bombs are being dropped on Iran?

                    I may still be misunderstanding your question, but you've yet to explain it if I am. But one thing that I'm certain about is that if you knew half as much as you claim to know then you wouldn't need to ask for a link for verification.

                    Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

                    by rogun on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 01:18:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I never said I was smart (4.00 / 3)

                      I said I know things

                      there is a difference

                      The MSM doesn't know what it is saying, so a lot of stuff gets through that nobody pays any attention to

                      The uranium stuff, and the aluminum tubes WERE reported in october of 2002, the dtories were drowned out by other stories, and breying commentators

                      I have to sift through a lot of bullshit to find one little golden nugget, but i know the nugget when i see it. In reference to the uranium tubes, an oak Ridge technician was quoted as saying the tubes were unsuitable for refining uranium, and three spooks from DIA said they WERE for refining urainium. So who are you going to believe, three spooks who never worked in a nuclear lab in their lives, or a guy who is actually paid to refine uranium ???

                      I chose the Oak Ridge guy, Chicken Noodle Network chose the three spooks

                      There was a plane that crashed in Far Rockaway in November of 2001, I saw the Tail section floating in Jamacia Bay north of Far Rockaway, between the airport and the crash site, about 30 minutes after the crash

                      My on the spot reasonable deduction of why it crashed; the fucking tail fell off

                      two years later, from the NTSB again, the Tail fell off

                      like I said, I know things. I aint smart, I've just got really strong powers of deductive reasoning and a rabid appetite for news

                      I stole the moniker from Susan Sarandon's intro monologue in Bull Durham

                      I've worshipped Buddah, Vishnu, Siva, Allah trees, mushrooms, ... and Isadora Duncan, I know things

                      •  Well, if that constitutes knowing things (none / 1)

                        then I guess that I know things also. You don't have to convince me of the lying of the MSM (and yes I think they do know what they're saying, but that doesn't mean they're going to worry about a few people who can see through the cracks like youself. Most people don't have the time or, unfortunately, the interest to read papers all day and it's most people they care about most.) I sincerely believe the MSM is the biggest problem we face today.

                        As someone with a degree in physics, I took a special interest in the aluminum tubes and Niger yellowcake stories. I, too, remember when the Oak Ridge expert claimed the aluminum tubes were unworthy for enriching uranium. I think 60 Minutes even did an expose of it well in advance of the war, although it was some time after the story first broke. Needless to say, there was never any doubt in my mind who was telling the truth here.

                        But I still don't know what you're problem is with my answer to your question or why you need a link to verify that bombs are being dropped. I have no idea if Ritter is right, but I'm not going to assume he isn't because I can't find a link to verify it. Does bombing Iran automatically necessitate the need for a media story? It should, but I highly doubt that it does.

                        Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

                        by rogun on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 02:31:42 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  cause mattman wants to know (4.00 / 2)

                          when the bombs start dropping

                          we're having a competition to see who tells the other about it first

                          I read EVERYTHING I can find, gleening facts

                          when the shit hits the fan, I want to know

                          so when somebody says the shit hit the fan, I ask if the shit really hit the fan

                          you could make an impressive diary out of the comments mattman and I have posted in other people's diaries discussing this very topic. we're actually kinda rude about it, in my opinion. we've been over this a lot in the past two months, exchanging links and such

                          links are the source of my mighty powers. If you know something that I don't, share the data man

                          how many words a day is a lot, 1 million, 2 million, I might be reading that many words per day, I never counted them

                          •  Gonna Jump On In Here (4.00 / 5)

                            because I see my name being bandied about (smiley face to KT).

                            In the months that "knowthings" and I have been hashing this over,  I have come not only to respect him greatly, but also learned that we do our research and homework pretty much the same way.

                            Read, read,  read and then read some more.  Read from as many sources you can get yer hands on.  Then when yer eyeballs are burning from reading, grab some Visine and push on with more reading.

                            So when he asks for links,  I really get why.  We don't always agree on certain things BUT challenging each other makes us much clearer.  At least that works for me.

                            I now firmly believe that the attack on Iran is coming - SOON.  Full stop.  And I believe that the sequelae of that attack is gonna be much worse than I can describe here.

                            One of my resources is a site (to which I will NOT link) that is top heavy with military folk both ex and presently serving.  If you think things get a bit rudish HERE, all I can say is THERE, it's knives, guns and nukes 24/7.

                            They slash and burn, take no prisoners.  But they now generally agree - the moron is getting his new war on.

                            The Iranians are very smart, tough folks and I can promise you they will not be taken by surprise.  Their response will blow the doors off.

                            So while the asshole in the WH, yammers on and on about their election not being valid - those Sunburn missles are pointed where the devastation will be agonizing to US.  They can and will kill thousands of our troops in Iraq. And that's just for starters.

                            I can't think of any country that will stand with us this time.  The world's response will be a giant "Oh well, pass the butter, please."  Those who are not yawning will be outright laughing.

                            I firmly believe that the assholery neocons are just waiting for Bolton to slime on over to the U.N.  He's as crazy as a shithouse rat, but that works fine for them.  He's just exactly what they need.

                            Can these cataclysm be stopped?  Maybe.  Stopping Bolton should be our priority.  Call every senator you know today.  Every one of them you can. There is nothing more important you can be doing today.

                            One last point I'd like to make:  FWIW,  I strongly believe Iran has nukes - already.  They'd be crazy not to have them.  I think they've already filled their shopping cart when Dr. Kahn of Pakistan was having a firesale.

                            (Note to Asshole in the WH and Pentagon: If you were gonna bomb anybody, it shoulda been Pakistan, schmucks.)

                            But today, make calls - and pray.

                            Oops, one last note,  I promise.  Check out the foam and spittle appearence on TDS by Kenneth Timmerman of last week.  I was originally outraged that Jon Stewart had him on.  Now I completely understand.  Sly, smart Jon.

                            You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

                            by mattman on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 04:21:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Iranian Response (4.00 / 2)

                              So while the asshole in the WH, yammers on and on about their election not being valid - those Sunburn missles are pointed where the devastation will be agonizing to US.  They can and will kill thousands of our troops in Iraq. And that's just for starters.

                              I have written a diary on the Iranian response that I suggest you read (Your opinions would be appreciated). I do not at all thing that Iran will be flying missiles over Israel or Iraq for that matter but you are correct in your assumption that there response can be a heavy one.

                              •  For Purposes Of THIS Dicusssion (4.00 / 2)

                                I would be very interested why you would think Iran would not use those Sunburn missles in response to an attack by US/Israel.

                                I cannot imagine why they would withhold them if an Act of War occured.  Can't think of a better rainy day scenario.

                                And I'll up the ante here: I predict that Syria will join the Iranians in responding to US aggression - with those shiny new missles they just got handed by Russia.  Here's why: They KNOW they're next on the list of targert and why would they not think 'it's better to fight along with the Iranians now than wait til our turn comes'.

                                This is only one more reason that an attack on Iran just crazy.  Our troops in Iraq are sitting ducks.  

                                On the site I read that has a lot of military folks on it, our troops had been called "bullet stoppers"  but now, by those who believe an attack on Iran by the US is coming soon, they're called "missile meat".

                                You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

                                by mattman on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 11:46:06 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  Iran's Goal (none / 0)

                                  As I mentioned in the Iranian Response the stated goal of Iran is to be a counter balance to western might both militarily and economically under the veil of Islam. Such a power requires more than just Iranian intellect & nationalism it requires the unification of certain Arab & Islamic nations. The pieces are not yet in place (as far as I can tell) and that is why, I believe, the US seems to think this as the best time to strike.

                                  Fully expected should be a United States Of the Middle East lead by Iran with the support of their new ally but this goal cannot be accomplished if they decide to overtly attack America; as I have said before, no matter how weak the US military seems they are still the greatest military power in the world and could quickly OVERTHROW any government(although that doesn't account for keeping the peace). For now the Mullahs have to be content with survival.

                                  Assuming the US does not invade with ground troups (which is the likely approach given current military levels) Iran will be better served by destabilizing the region through a series of covert military ops. They can hurt the American economy without outright war.

                                  •  Uh, point of Order (none / 1)

                                    the Iranians are not Arabs, they're Persians

                                    you didn't actually say that Iranians were Arabs, but you kinda imply that this is an ARAB problem

                                    Arabs and Persians hate each other MOST DAYS

                                    Such a power requires more than just Iranian intellect & nationalism it requires the unification of certain Arab & Islamic nations.

                                    this is entirely correct, but it doesn't examine the Persian-Arab tensions, or the Shia-Sunni tensions, that have so far prevented the unification you mention

                                    •  Understood (none / 1)

                                      First in defence of my non-existent statement I never said that this was an Arab problem and I don't even think I implied that but if it was taken that way please be assured that I am aware that most Iranians are not Arabs.


                                      this is entirely correct, but it doesn't examine the Persian-Arab tensions, or the Shia-Sunni tensions, that have so far prevented the unification you mention

                                      I absolutely agree with you that the statement did not deal with the issue and I really wasn't trying to deal with the issue(although I think it is vital to the plan of the Mullahs)

                                      I am not sure how they plan to unite but I would assume it to be, as I have said before, under the banner of a need for Islamic unity, as the Supreme Leader has called for many times. The current American policy for the greater Middle East may actually play a helping role to the end goal of the Islamic Republic

                            •  I agree with your nuke theory, Mattman (4.00 / 3)

                              I think Iran picked up some rogue nukes from a Soviet bloc country or the Russians~ maybe even China, some time ago but has been playing close to the vest...

                              Just a hunch.

                              "You can't awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."-Navajo saying.

                              by quartzite on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 08:29:11 AM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  And A Very Good Hunch (none / 0)

                                that is you have there. I agree completely that the Iranians being very intelligent, would have made there purchases some time back.  If they didn't do it well before our Iraq invasion - which I am sure they did, they heard Monkeyboy speech calling them part of the Axis of Evil - they sure as hell closed the deal soon after.

                                And for anyone to assume they were not in the market for Dr. Kahn's helpful tech work, please give me a call because I've got a gizmo in my pocket which turns dog turds into 24kt. solid gold.

                                You won't want to miss out buying one from me.

                                You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

                                by mattman on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 03:10:05 PM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                          •  I think I've transcended into the twilight zone (none / 0)

                            Well, I'm getting closer to understanding why I feel like I'm in some dark transitional state with no sightline. I still don't understand, but I'm obviously out of the loop with the discussion between you guys, so I've stopped trying.

                            So forgive me for intruding. Your discussion is interesting, nonetheless, and I'll just follow along from afar.

                            Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

                            by rogun on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 03:42:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  what it would take to convince me ??? (4.00 / 2)

                      show me evidence of STRATEGIC TARGETS being blown up

                      you fail to understand me

                      if you knew half as much as you claim to know then you wouldn't need to ask for a link for verification.

                      without the links, I wouldn't KNOW anything

                      I'm here searching for data, actual evidence of an attack, and this isn't evidence

                      what is blowing up in Iran (SO FAR) isn't causing any strategic damage, so why would we bother ???

                      to ask why I need the links is to suppose I am omniscient, I get my data the old fashioned way, via the internets

                      so relax, I'm human, I just wanna be a super computer when i grow up, If I ever decide to grow up

                      •  not all targets are military (4.00 / 3)

                        These may very well be political targets.  Keep in mind that the neocons really believed that "greeted as liberators" crap in Iraq.  These bombings may very well be to create unrest.  An exploding toilet wedge issue if you will.
              •  Destibalizing The Regime (4.00 / 2)

                These bombings are meant to cause fear to the Iranian people and as a consequence show that this regime can't protect the country. Much like the insurgency is currently doing in Iraq.

                It is not to take down the regime but to soften support among moderates. These attacks were no coincidence. These "terrorist" attacks were caused by the United States of America.

                Also, there has been unrest in Arab majority areas. This unrest is another tactic by American Special Ops to further cause discomfort to the regime and weaken nationalism.

                All this is happening while the EU is trying to resolve the problems through negotiations which makes this all the more unfortunate.

                I am not one to suggest that the media is being controlled by the government but it should be mentioned that many stories focusing on Iranians has been flooding the news outlets of late including a recent CNN story discussing how women in Iran have no rights (Although they have more votes than the women in Iraq & Saudi Arabia to name but two American allies).

                The world is impotent and if America wants to go to war there is little the rest of the world will do (hopefully I am proven wrong on this point)

                •  Isn't It Possible That (none / 0)

                  threat of an attack would have the effect of stiffening Iran's resolve and increase nationalism by the populace.

                  I give in support of what I've just posited, the SURPISE showing of the pro-nuke hardline mayor who made the runnoff.

                  He wasn't expected to do well at all - but he sure did.

                  You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

                  by mattman on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 11:54:31 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  the diarist.... (4.00 / 2)

            ...is still quoting scott ritter (and should probably go in and fix the quote marks, or better yet, put the whole cited piece into a grey box).

            you could probably track down an email addy for mr. ritter and ask him your question.

            i have friends in the military who insist iran is targeted this month....

            The radical invents views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them. - Mark Twain

            by FemiNazi on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 12:18:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I know all about Ritter's predictions (none / 1)

              Ray McGovern and Sy Hersh said the same thing, at about the same time, and at that time, I posted on the strange fact that three experts came to the same conclusion

              I've been hashing this out with mattman since then, for about two months now, and we both believe the Iran Attack to be a valid threat for different reasons

              But this diary just doesn't make any sense in accordance with those previous conversations

              it presupposes a bassackwards attack against a city with NO STRATEGIC importance, and an ill concieved set of consequences from that attack, and has no supporting evidence, and nothing to show that any "attack" has begun

              I trust Scott Ritter, but he could just be covering his ass on this one

              I've been watching for warning signs on this topic for two months, and this diary didn't barely came close to triggering my alarm systems

              It's just worthless speculation wrapped in a healthy dose of truthful suspicions

              I could be wrong, but it don't happen often. especially on stuff like this

    •  Scott Ritter (4.00 / 5)

      was right about Iraq, & he's been saying that Bush would launch a war on Iran for months.  He predicted it would start this summer.  I think I have to believe him.

      Dear God. I wish I could die now.  I don't want to live thru this.

        •  I'm gonna start (4.00 / 2)

          bawling again.  I was so distraught the other day, & couldn't understand why.  Maybe it was a foreboding.  People are just oblivious about this stuff.  That's the sad part.  They just care about TV, celebrities & stuff.  The banality of evil.

          & now there are rumors that  Bush will just nuke North Korea.  

          Meanwhile he's best buddies with all kinds of evil, torturing dictators.

          He really is the devil.

      •  Will the money ever be cut off? (none / 1)

        it only stops if Bush boy goes broke.  But the Saudi's and China are the biggest holders of debt to this country.

        Don't protest, PUBLISH!

        by Yankee in exile on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 03:44:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I hear you but... (none / 1)

        don't die.  Generations before us have struggled against the same and worse in order to save this country and keep it moving in a progressive direction.  It's our turn to step up.  That's all. Look at John Conyers.  He's a senior citizen and yet he marched up to the gates of hell to confront this administration with our demands for accountability.  Don't lay down for these horrible people.  Resist.  We may not be able to save this Republic.  But the next time there is a republic, and there will be a next time, there is hope that the people will learn from our struggle.
      •  I don't know... (none / 0)

        I believe he's delusional enough to try, but how in the real world could he possibly pull it off with things going so far south for him.

        I think another "war" would just break any support he has from people who don't want their children to die in an avoidable war.

        Stage a terrorist attack so people will rally around him?  How could he possibly defelect blame that he allowed ANOTHER attach on US soil?  How could he demonstrate that he's made us safer?  How could that possibly demonstrate anything but how his policies are failing americans?

    •  invade from Azerbaijan? (none / 1)

      To the north, in neighbouring Azerbaijan, the US military is preparing a base of operations for a massive military presence that will foretell a major land-based campaign designed to capture Tehran.

      This part seems unlikely - look at the maps, first here and then here.

      Note the mountain ranges separating the Azeri plains from anyplace interesting in Iran. Note the proximity of existing positions in Iraq to the oil fields.

      Also, why go to Tehran? There is nothing there but millions of pissed-off Iranians.

      He that would have been insolent and injurious in the woods of America,
      would not probably be much better in a throne.
      John Locke

      by Special Purpose Entity on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 12:00:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No strategy in this arguement (4.00 / 4)

        Nobody has even mentioned the Strait of Hormuz, the only strategically important piece of Iran

        when you look at THAT map, understand that ships can only move on the BLUE parts

        see that narrow point in the Persian Gulf, along the west coast of Iran, about 50% of our oil imports travel through that tiny passage, and iran controls it

        Iran has quite the impressive stockpile of surface to surface missiles too. Somebody recently posted an inventory

        if they can bomb Tel Aviv, the Iranians can sink every ship in the gulf too

        invest in Euro based securities folks

      •  Looks like (none / 1)

        we have them surrounded.
        •  General Custer ??? Is that you ??? (4.00 / 2)

          /snark
          •  Heh. (3.75 / 4)

            You're not thinking like a neocon.  If you put on your Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney or Rummy mask, you'll see.  

            I believe Ritter. He was right before, he's right now.  The Iran war is on.  If Scott says we'll nuke NK on 1/1/06, I'll believe him

            •  and if we haven't attacked by July 1st ??? (4.00 / 2)

              will you throw Scott Ritter to the wolves ???

              this isn't about protecting America, it's about protecting George Bush. Keep that in mind

              politics have changed since Scott Ritter wrote the first article

              The Bolton nomination was derailed, the DSM has grown legs

              don't hold George to a hard and fast schedule just because Scott Ritter says so

              Sy Hersh and Ray McGovern were a part of that choir too, and I don't hear them singing yet

              Scott Ritter is a WMD expert, not a military or political stratagist, McGovern and Hersh have more credibility in this field

              not that Scott Ritter is wrong, but he could be wrong, and I wouldn't hold it against him

              and I doubt the bombs described in the links were CIA instigated, they didn't hit anything we would want destroyed

              •  As I said (none / 1)

                It is not necessary for the U.S to hit military targets right now. It is more important to weaken support for the regime and these types of attacks help to do just that.

                The fact that no military installations were attacked is not enough to claim the innocence of the US Government in this case.

              •  There is no history in politics. (none / 1)

                I firmly believe that no item is placed on the political agenda unless it has some immediately current relevance.

                The fact that nobody except us was interested in the Downing Street Minutes until approximately 10 days ago leads me to believe that a current issue facing the county is that the Administration can not be trusted to give us the facts prior to going to war.

                Sure the media coverage may be about who knew what and when two years ago, but the media doesn't ever give us the whole srory, they simply report things that allow us to make analogies with current events.

                Iran is now where Iraq was at the time the DSM were written.  Where is Deepthroat?

                "If we outlaw everything some people find offensive, there wouldn't even be a Texas in the first place." - Cindy Campos, Lifeguard

                by jandrewmorrison on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 11:16:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  hard to answer cause its a strange analogy (none / 0)

                  Where is Deepthroat?

                  deepthroat COULD be a collection of people, most notably Richard Clarke

                  if I did a quick cut and paste on the circumstances, I would say we have another deepthroat working somewhere in Downing street

                  but deepthroat didn't do Nixon in, It was the guy who revealed the taping system

                  anyway, you earned you tinfoil for this gem:

                  I firmly believe that no item is placed on the political agenda unless it has some immediately current relevance.

                  If I could say it myself, I might add that nothing happens without profit for SOMEBODY

                  you've got to  find out who said it, and WHY he said it, before you can properly evaluate the statment

      •  in addition (none / 1)

        There's also the small matter of Iran and Azerbaijan having, you know, normalised and standard state-to-state relations. It has a lot to do with Iran's assistance in the Azeri-Armenian war. I don't know what agreements the US has with Azerbaijan, but I doubt that the Azeri government has signed off on permission for the US to use the facility for aggression against its cooperative neighbour.

        It's also entirely straightforward for the Iranians to have special ops forces on the ground in Azerbaijan to counter the possibility of the US using its airbase there as a staging post.

      •  oil pipeline (none / 0)

        azerbaijan is where the new oil pipeline is...it just opened last month.
    •  well if people weren't so scared about (4.00 / 2)

      beliving that the tin foil crowd could actually have something, our side could mobilize in the ways necessary to change the course of our current trajectory.

      Alas, everybody still lives in their nice little snug reality ignoring the bad shit thats going down in our name all over the world.

      suckers.

      so you think I'm a troll? Well kiss my hairy troll nalgas then

      by MetaProphet on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 01:49:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Please Recommend This Diary Back Up (none / 0)

      I hope it doesn't fall off the rec list.  It might be the most important subject today.

      You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

      by mattman on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 12:41:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, it must be... (none / 1)

    ...shock and awe only. We don't have the ground troops anymore to fight two wars at the same time. Three, if you still count Afganistan.

    Impeachment is only the beginning.

    by pseudomass on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 06:21:17 PM PDT

    •  Could there be something (none / 1)

      we don't know about?
      To bring a nation from 60% against Iraq war to majority supporting Iraq and Iran war would take something drastic. Hmmmm.....

      Common sense isn't that common - Voltaire

      by obgynlover on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 06:36:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The price of such a conversion (none / 1)

        Nuking an American city, and linking it to an Iranian-backed, Iraqi Shi'a faction.

        But it would entitle the Bushies to obliterate both countries in their entirety.

        It's a morbid way to liberate the Middle East, but only different from the existing Bush policy in how long it takes to implement.

        •  A big bill. (none / 1)

          Would've been nice if they could've found a way to secure our ports or watch our borders a little better. We all know how much those evildoers want to destroy our freedom. What if one somehow gets past our government and... well... yes,it would sure piss us off.

          -- We are just regular people informed on issues

          by mike101 on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 07:15:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  terrorists (none / 1)

            mike...as paranoid as our leaders are...if there really were terrorists, don't you think they would have someone guarding the borders and nukes?

            Our Gov ...is the terrorist org. they "use" scaring people with terrorism to get the people to agree to their wars. No, I'm not kidding. No, I'm not nuts.

            search on the internet for  "the power of nightmares"  watch it.

        •  The price and the lie (none / 1)

          "Nuking an American city, and linking it to an Iranian-backed, Iraqi Shi'a faction." And conveniently overlooking the fact that all the participants were Saudi's and non-Shia.
        •  What's really sobering (4.00 / 3)

          is to think your way around the globe and consider who has an interest in nuking an American city to draw the US into a never-ending mid-east war.

          1. The neocons:  Fear has worked best for them so far.  The casualties will be disproportionately Democrats in cities and might scare some more Dems into supporting them.

          2. The Russians: A long term way to grind our ass up while they re-build.  They get cover to crush any bothersome Moslems on their southern border.

          3. The Israelis:  Get us to fight their war.

          4. The Indians:  Would probably give them cover to crush Pakistan once and for all.

          5. The Pakistanis:  Would give them cover to crush India once and for all.

          6. The Chinese:  Same motive as the Russians except their western border.

          7.  Al Queda:  Same old-Same Old, just bigger.  

          8.  Europe:  Tired of US arrogance....set up a quagmire that will teach the Americans some humility.

          9.  Any other crazy fuck who just wants to see some serious fireworks.  

          Probably left a few out.......This is not good.

          The Long War is not on Iraq, Afghanistan, or Iran. It is on the American people.

          by Geonomist on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 09:34:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I submit it's the exact opposite (4.00 / 3)

            The entire litany of countries you describe want Republican, er, American forces out of the Middle East.

            1. China is disinterested in paying a premium for dollar-denominated petroleum exports.

            2. Russia seeks to proft from arms sales and nuclear technology to a region that it is no longer interested in, now that it has plenty of oil of its own.

            3. India is interested in commercial relations with Iran and the wider Islamic world, via its vast homegrown Muslim population.

            4. Pakistan is interested in setting itself up as the Islamic military go-to peacekeeper; there's plenty of warts on Pakistan's face, but they are hardly alone in the reverse-beauty pageant that is the court of world public opinion. They are trying to go legit on many fronts; being seen as a lackey of the Americans is problematic. NOT finding Osama is in my opinion their version of the Brecht's "The Good Soldier"  (Sorry -- We tried but he just got away, again!)

            5. Israel is coming to realize what Europe did for fifty years -- having American presidents dominate the regional security agenda means getting a lot less sleep at night. Further, Gaza and free elections (possibly of a Hamas government!) in Palsetine may be only the beginning; what happens when the US decides that it is no longer necessary to give Israel billions in grant aid and low-interest loans, or insists on a nuclear-free Middle East, Israel included? Oops.

            6. Divergence between European and American policy objectives in the Middle East has turned the (Bush) Americans into active meddlers in European domestic politics, bent on disintegrating the EU before it becomes a threat. Most of the energy behind this vendetta is derived from the split on war policy; the Europeans would as soon the Americans leave and return to their unconcern for Europolitics.
          •  hey, why not Venezuela? (4.00 / 4)

            Then they'd hold all the accessible oil, plus they just really don't like us at all.
      •  Terra Attack, Pandemic (3.50 / 8)

        US legislation and sweeping delegation of powers to World Health Organization will permit virtual martial law scenario in case of avian flu pandemic -- which, conveniently for BushCo (an AmeriKills[TM] Company) -- may be impending.

        In another of those whacky, whacky coincidences favoring BushCo plans for world domination, literally scores of leading scientists in the field of microbiology and other fields related to fighting pandemics, bioterror etc. have met untimely ends, many of them murdered, since 9-11.  the better to make a pandemic unstoppable.

        Failing a convenient pandemic, the Boys Who Brought You 9-11 -- and I DON'T mean bin Laden -- no doubt have their Special Effects Department hard at work on a terra strike that will make 9-11 look like Woodstock.

        The Merkan people are stirring about Iraq, but remain in their deep slumber about 9-11.  BushCo controls the Executive Branch, Gestapo and SS (Homeland Security, FEMA Death Camp Network, FBI, Secret Service, etc.), both houses of Congress, most of the federal judiciary that matters, the military, virtually all major media, the secret international gulag, and God knows what other horrors.

        I think we will soon have a cataclysm, the internet will be shut down as a way for opponents of the regime to communicate, and known dissidents will start disappearing.  Only the military has the clout to stop this from coming to pass.

        "A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."

        by proudtinfoilhat on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 07:05:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Let's run through the possible options - (none / 0)

        a) a draft for more US troops?

        This would require turning Iran into more of an enemy, in Joe Six-pack's eyes

        b) Israel provides troops, via proxy?

        This would require near insanity among the Bushites, to think this wouldn't turn into MidEast war.

        c) another eurasian nation, such as azer or kyrgiszstan or another 'stan, providing troops?

        This is the only way to invade that has a remote chance of working.

        d) the Bushites want to just bomb and hope that destabilizing the current regime will be enough to bring about a popular revolt?

        This is insanity again, but it's an insanity that's slightly more likely to fit the Bushites' worldview, than (a)

        e) Turkey provides troops??

        Other possibilities I ain't thought of here?

        "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

        by jbeach on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 01:35:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  honestly, other than China (none / 0)

          What country has troops to spare?

          It ain't the US!

          Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

          by Fabian on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 03:59:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Air war (none / 0)

            They don't want to "own" Iran.  They just want to destroy it.  

            In the 21st century, that can be done from the air.  

            Bush will bomb Iran claiming he is wiping out their nuclear capability.  Invading and occupying has been a disaster in Iraq.  Why would they do it again?  

            He is just that stupid.  Especially the more his ratings drop, the more he will be convinced that bombing Iran is a way to pull them back up.

            Air war, bitches. It won't be pretty.

            I hated Bush before it was cool.

            by daveriegel on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 06:50:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Another Benefit To "Destroying" Iran (none / 1)

              is that much needed oil is kept out of Chinese hands.

              And, if,  as many suspect, China is the ultimate target of the US neocrappers, it can only be seen as a good thing.

              This will make the Chinese very cross.

              So as you might expect, China will be very clearly and actively in Iran's corner.

              This is not a good omen for the US' plan. But we know if they got any stupider they'd be algae.

              You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

              by mattman on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 07:38:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I've been toying with this idea (none / 0)

                For a while and I hope I'm wrong.  It may be that the neoconmen are actually trying to start WWIII.  The "thinking" that would motivate them being the idea that the US is basically an oil-fed leviathan, and with Peak Oil looming and perhaps already here we are at our peak of usable military and economic power.  So we need to use that power now to crush China, India, Iran, and any other threats to our dominance or we will have to actually make like the rest of the world and live within some limits.  In public they may deny things like Peak Oil but it would be no surprise if their geopolitical strategies were secretly based on it.

                Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

                by Event Horizon on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 03:34:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  yep (none / 0)

      Somebody needs to screen "A Bridge to Far" for Bush.  

      Normally when you are bogged down and undermanned, you don't open a new front against a fresh enemy.  Shades of Korea all over again.

      Want to watch Republican economic theories in action? Look at Iraq.

      by Michaelpb on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 06:44:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Only one problem (none / 1)

    The Iranians, not quite capable of making their own nuclear missiles, did the next best thing:

    There was a rumor that the Iranians bought a clutch of long-range nuclear cruise missiles from Ukraine a few months ago.

    That's why the rhetoric out of Washington toned down drastically.

    But perhaps that was just a rumor, ergo the Bushies are feeling brave all over again.

    The only question is: What happens if the Iranians buy more on the lend-lease nuclear proliferation plan...

    ...or already have?

    The Russians, Chinese, Pakistanis and Indians don't seem to have a problem with a nuclear Iran...at least in comparison to American occupation of Asia.

  •  Get ready to have your socks rocked! (4.00 / 8)

    Billmon suggests it is quite possible let him explain in : Going to Tehran

    One of the biggest changes in my lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal
      -  Bill Moyers

    •  thanks for that link (none / 0)

      Billmon is usually right on target too..

      I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain

      by route66 on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 07:00:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As I have stated before (none / 1)

      My worst nightmare involves another "event" occurring on American soil. I don't put it past this crowd. Their lust for power is insatiable. If they think the American public will turn out their majority the "event" will occur. Maybe before the midterms or possibly after the midterms and the majority has been turned out. Martial Law is declared, Congress is suspended (for their own safety). Done.

      It shouldn't work, I would hope the Country is smarter/better than that. However that's my nightmare.

      •  as i have posted above ;-) (none / 0)

        July 6 is a new moon this year.

        "They're telling us something we don't understand"
        General Charles de Gaulle, Mai '68

        by subtropolis on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 11:21:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  during this next "event" (none / 1)

        will people be suckered, or will atleast half of us realize what's going on and not extend such patriotism and blind trust to an asshole who deserves none of it.  Who will cry foul?

        Don't protest, PUBLISH!

        by Yankee in exile on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 03:52:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We, will shout foul (none / 0)

          All thinking Americans will be shouting BS, BS, BS, but the question is who will be listening. Fifty-nine million(?) people voted for these assholes last year because they were not listening to what was already being said about this crowd. If there is another "event" will they be willing to listen or will they be cowering in their suburbans/escalades?

          People have to realize this crowd is not only bad for their economic self interest, but they are putting our personal safety at greater and greater risk for generations to come. Bushco not only wants us to have our children fight and die for him now, they are willing to put the next generation at risk for profit and personal agenda.  

      •  mine too (none / 1)

        that's why the DSM is so important.  We need to get the facts of BushCo.'s lies before the American people coupled with the fact that we are less safe because of BushCo.'s lies.

        Truth - our doctrine of preemption.

  •  Keep in mind (4.00 / 4)

    the recent Boston Globe article by Gelb, talking about the 10 divisions of the Iraqi Army, and where they are being positioned...

    The US army is not going to invade Iran, the Iraqi Army is.

    The only way to ensure a free press is to own one

    by RedDan on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 06:54:58 PM PDT